"I'm the first to admit that by reading blogs like Whale Oil I've probably helped validate this tendency."

Er, you think? Beyond that, I'm going to have to ask you to be more specific. There are plenty of blogs out there that have a functioning community of commenters perfectly capable of sustaining a civil conversation. None of the blogs you mentioned in the previous piece happen to belong there, in fact I wouldn't read Farrar on that basis alone. But what he does really is no different from what the Herald and Stuff do: just open up the articles to reader comments, which increases the page impressions, but do none of the work that is needed to ensure that the community works properly. And it's not policing the comments as such (although sometimes a moderator will do that too), it's the being there, following up, participating in the community. Which requires a lot of work, as Russell Brown could tell you - Public Address is in fact a place you may want to check out for a counterexample of your generic observation that blog commenting is all about the trolling.

As for what moves a troll to do its thing, I'm not going to venture a response, except to say I doubt it's a dark aspect of the Kiwi psyche since anybody who spent any time on Usenet could tell you Kiwis are no worse than eveyrbody else.

It disappoints me that people can't seem to separate the personality and the issue. When did we lose the ability to rationally discuss the ins and outs, and put our point of view across logically with supporting argument? And when did we lose the ability to acknowledge the other persons perspective?

I can only draw a parallel with NZer's in cars. The whole Jekyll and Hyde proposition where our egos checked in normal life suddenly balloon when surrounded by half a ton of metal.... or perhaps half a kg of keyboard.

It has been the same for the last 30 years that I've been on various nets, from when I was at uni to now.

In the absence of strong moderation (the standard) or the threat of it (public address), a comments section rapidly drops to the lowest common denominator (the sewer). In the blog version of the bulletin board system, it becomes particularly evident as there are virtually no barriers to entry. At least with BBS'es and usenet feeds there had to be at least a modicum of technical ability.

You're essentially seeing a peacock display - the worst trolls and the most trolls are youngish males. If you press them, you'll usually find out that the louder they are, the less effective they are in real life. I guess acting like a dick in public gives some kind of compensation.

Some blogs simply turn off the comments - like No Right Turn (if you want solid stories - go there) so they can concentrate on posts.

We want to have the commentary. It is very useful in helping the multitude of writers on The Standard to improve their story and writing skills. However we're also prepared to expend considerable effort in moderating the comments section to make sure that the bad behavior doesn't get out of hand.

The biggest obstacle to that was actually the idealism of some of the founding authors. It took about six months for the logic of moderating to get across. That delay required a lot more work to bring the comments section under control and the commenting culture to establish. The tipping factor was when most of the authors didn't want to read our own comments section.

If you google for my handle or name you'll find the widespread whining from the pathetic peacocks I banned for various types of bad behavior, which are outlines in our <a href='http://www.thestandard.org.nz/policy'&gt;policy&lt;/a&gt;.

A lot of the banned congregate in the sewer at kiwiblog where taht effort has not been made, or anywhere that isn't moderated - usually places run by the trolls for trolls.

BTW: why exactly is your blog site so hard to find?

Lynn

After reading this blog I clicked on the link to Whaleoil out of curiousity.....and was revolted. While I might not agree with the articles written by many media commentators, I was appalled at the low-grade cheap personal attacks made when the writers did not agree with the commentator. As Stuling #2 says, separate the person and the issue. No wonder our society has sunk so low given the way we treat each other when we are safely anonymous. It would appear nasty pieces of work are all alive and kicking on that site!

Hi Lyn. Interesting point you made there about idealism being the initial stumbling block to moderation. And I guess I can understand that ... it's that wild west/lack of boundaries aspect to the blogosphere that appealed to people in the first place. As to why the blog might be hard to find, the reason is that I'm a Dompost blogger rather than a Stuff blogger, so the link through it is via the www.dompost.co.nz site.

Honestly Tracy, I think your kind of missing the point about blogging . We can't go through life trying to pretend everyone is polite or well mannered when voicing their own opinions. Life is full of lovers & haters. In a "democracy" you must be willing to accept ALL points of view, otherwise how do we define our friends from our foes without the allowing the concept of "sincerity" which is the basis of free speech? "Hate speech" may be hard on the ears but so is political correctness! Both have their place. Alot of the anger/hate comes from people BECAUSE they tryed the polite approach and were ignored. This is why we have "terrorism" in the world and always will. The precusor of such acts are founded in "repression & persecution" of certain minority (and sometimes majority) groups. My advice would be to take a deep breath, count to 10 and try reading between the "hate' lines to the bigger issues at hand.

Well said Justice. Anonymity allows people to be, say and act how they REALLY feel without disguising it behind the weasel words and manners of society. When you strip it all away, people are haters and vitriolic and seething, and many are just plain frustrated at having no voice. In this country so many loud minorities and pressure groups seem to get their way. Politicians ignore the majority will; the anti smacking referendum being an example. So yes, you are going to get some who just want to vent it all in a blog or comments on a blog and you have to accept that is the democracy of the internet. Then after that you have to accept there is a proportion of folk who are just inarticulate and angry and will express it badly. Tracy, it is just what goes with the territory of blogging. You throw out your opinion and then you get some back. You are just going to have to either suck it in or give up blogging.

Well said Arthur @ #7 & Justice @#6 - I would add that it's a little disappointing to have a columnist such as Tracy use up a dedicated space analysing the discussion on why people do exactly what the blog space is designed to do; tell me there is nothing of moment happening in this land that couldn't be written about.

I'm so old fashioned I expect a columnist to produce an item with some meaningful research based material, on a subject of importance that most of us don't have the resources to undertake but need to have discussed. Frankly some of the items inviting comment/posts are shallow, thoughtless, lazy and clearly dashed off between coffee breaks, and specifically designed to be prevocative; drag a subject down into the sewer - expect the scrapping to occur down there.

I think blog comments are like driving a car and a personal conversation is like walking.

If you cut someone off in a car, they're likely to yell and give you the finger.

If you walk in front of someone in the street, you're both likely to apologise and smile.

It's to do with distance and bubbles. You're in a bubble in a car and protected when you're behind a keyboard – you don't need to interact with anyone in person.

On the other hand you're open to the subtle things that covey normal human interaction when you're walking or in a conversation and that moderates behaviour.

I think blog comments are pretty much what you'd get if the psychopaths who call talkback radio could have an extended conversation with each other: it's not a Kiwi thing (if you want to see some REAL crazy check out the comments on political blogs in the US) but it is mostly a guy thing. Contra Lynn, a lot of the really angry guys around the blogs seem older, a lot of them are incredibly bitter about the Family Court, female politicians (excluding Paula and Crusher, natch) and feminism: it doesn't take a lot of imagination to fill in the dots.