Colin,the political ramifications of this must loom large.Inthe long run all these concessions to Maori must not sit well with the average National voter.The Brash Orewa speech gave a massive boost to National,it essentially said that full and final settlement was due and the dissolution of Maori seats inevitable,on both counts National supporters must be disappointed.Do you think this will become a problem for KEY in the longer term?

<I>Treasury is now admitting that it might have undershot on its estimate of how much the ETS is going to cost us by 2050 ...</i>

As I understand it, this is the 'us' here is taxpayers (as opposed to producers and consumers of carbon-intensive stuff - this is the money they're *not* paying), and the 'ETS' is National's ETS.

The thing that's actually costing 'us'-as-in-everybody money is producing so much greenhouse gas.

"mangy three-legged dog of a law"....sums up the entire global warming/climate change argument in it's entirety.

Human induced global warming is a load of absolute rubbish and this type of legislation and the ensuring tax burden is only just the beginning.

One of the biggest concerns i have of the climate eco-fascist fear mongers/alarmists is the systematic brainwashing they are orchestrating on the young and vulnerable minds through the school system......they watch Al Gores fictional movie one time and that is it....we are all doomed. It is a tragedy and quite evil to be instilling such fear into young minds.....

The good news is that it is all based on lies and the truth will prevail....i just hope we haven’t taxed and regulated ourselves to oblivion by then....

Chickens, meet roost. I think many people are sceptical of emissions trading because it just looks like another stock market. I've read good things about how it works to preserve air quality and reduce acid rain in the USA, but what works for Illinois and New York may not work for the world. (California also has emissions trading, but nothing works there, because it's run by binding referenda.)

Recent alarm generated when the recession pushed carbon prices through the floor (in the EU and the US) has been ameliorated by the price rising. Will it reduce pollution? If it doesn't, is the solution to tinker with the carbon price? If the cost of reducing your emissions is less than the cost of buying credits for them, the scheme should work. Shouldn't it?

I wouldn't think that National would need the Maori vote to get the ETS legislation passed. With a politically vascectomised Rodney Hide, Act should fall into line. Im preparing for all the haters out there to wail on the Maori Party & the leverage they are using to the benefit of their constituents. Bare in mind Maori are constantly reminded of their position at the lower end of the social scale (12th para above for example) & when something legal is done about it ie the "Maori Party", Maori are equally villified as being racist & seperatist. If you disagree with this, then what is your answer? There is no impropriety going on here, Maori are, as always, following rules & regulations which Maori had no hand in creating. If advantages arise, then isn't that simply being clever, therefore something to be proud of??. Regarding treasury estimates, how can an estimate be carried out if we can not first agree there is a climate change issue? It sounds to me like National are trading on the policy of fear to distract or misdirect the public away from National's side deals with the Maori Party. Did no one else find it weird that the Maori party made no noise about the super city seats? Or made no noise about Key/Smith ACC privatisation? No noise about Brownlee's mining the Coromandel?? And you watch...When Tony Ryall's sweeping Health reforms make headlines, Tariana Turia, despite recent headlines, will be as quiet as a church-mouse!!! The Estimates are rubbish, strawmen put up so they can be knocked down & discredited as "based on incomplete information" all the while the Maori Party is having its way with National. Good on 'em I say, in many ways, its better than being the actual Government - all the negotiating benefits, with bad press deflected onto the Government. I reiterate my position that when you take a global look at race relations in this country, MMP & the oppotunism this presents Maori & the Maori Party, are simply self correcting mechanisms of the overall picture. My opinion is that the ETS, at worst, represents a loss of opportunity to some, but still falls short of the loss of imeasurable opportunity to Maori due to successive generations of Pakeha elitism. Rangi.

New Zealanders – Murray & Fellow Labourers & Toxic Greens & Jumbo Kiwis – Relaxed Right Wingers & their supporters Kio Ora Bros – Rest of the country

Sidekick is back and this topic has been approved by master for me to participate. This ETS conceived by Labourers is a con scheme and like Stupid City restructuring plan, deemed to fail. None of the major polluters will do a damn thing and here we are, a tiny drop in the ocean, killing our small businesses and increasing costs to the common man on Struggle Street.

Emperor has lost the plot on this. He should simply repeal the existing ETS crap introduced by the Communists, wait to see what Australia and others do first. Kick Smith is rushing off to have something in his torn trouser pocket to take it to Copenhagen to boast to the world that New Zealand is doing something. Sit back and chill out man. The mad European nations have an ETS, so what? China doesn’t have one, India doesn’t have one, USA doesn’t have one – they are the economic powers.

ETS will do nothing to reduce global warming. Instead, I would look at providing incentives and funding to do research to reduce Greenhouse gas emissions.

Q: What is the similarity between ETS and Fill Gap?

A: Both are heading for failure in 2011.

One thing for sure, greg(#1), is that Winston Peters will have a well-defined platform - I am not saying who is right or who is wrong.

Is that why John Key refuses to work with him ??

Oh no !! ... it is because he feels he is unable to take him at his word .... but he is able to take Rodney Hide at his word .. hahahahahaha.. haha.. (excuse my mirth).

When i first heard about ETS cap-and -trade schemes, I laughed. Likewise when i discovered NZ cows are destroying the known universe by belching. It's all an obvious con. They create a centralised credit system and value ( a carbon credit ) which will soon default to a real currency...eg Euro or a new world money unit. Everything will get co-ordinated off European computers - eg the huge EEC self-programming one in Brussels, nicknamed 'The Beast'. There'll be a powerful new world bureaucracy that can call on your house or farm, demand access and then arrest you for endangering the planet because your cows are farting too much and your Bansai trees aren't contributing enough ( they breathe in CO-2 ) and will have to start growing.... or else. Meanwhile the big banks and traders - those in the know - will be making a fortune in commissions by trading the Carbon Credits...apparently forever. That includes friends of Nick Smith and the Nats, for whom Bank welfare is more important than the Ag industry. There's no proof that Carbon gas emmissions have caused warming ( NASA says its sunspots ), The Earth was far warmer 2,000 years ago, its been warming since 1700, then cooling sharply since 1998 ( say many sources ). We may be getting Climate Shift, however, which might come from polarity shift or planetary alignment. If there was a Carbon problem, then a Carbon Tax would be far better. But better still to just clean up, tax the real polluters and spend that on treeplanting operations - easing Maori unemployment. Better than Key and co bribing the Maori Separatist party - giving away more of NZ to get this deal through. And the next one. Then go to Copenhagen and say that NZ can come up with its own sensible solutions...so why don't others ? Why fall for this con-trick and compliance nightmare, cooked up by the Banks and the UN ?

Hypocrisy is the hallmark of Key's Government.

And now he's also willing to sacrifice Pharmac in the name of an FTA with the USA;

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3068622/Give-and-take-for-free-trade-deal

Greg 31 - Agree with you there, I am a non-maori forest owner so will be thoroughly p****d off if I cannot get the same treatment as maori. But then again I am p****d off that maori will get preferential treatment for ever bacuse of that treaty. Don Brash was right all along and John Key will regret his dalliance with TT and PS. Just as well PG is so useless as opposition leader. My advice to Nick Smith - just scrap the ETS and ignore it and Copenhagen. The European nitwits will isolate NZ produce anyway, regardless of what we do or don't do.