JGM (#91) : "Oh, and @Stormer#85 You have to go to University to become a teacher you muppet!"

Actually, Kermit, whilst this might be the requirement today it hasn't always been the case.

Which means that there are still plenty of people in our classrooms who didn't go to university. (Plenty of my wife's colleagues aren't graduates).

(But in their defence it has to be said that these people went through the teacher training sausage machine in the days when it wasn't so easy to get into a "university" as it is today. So they might not be any less able than many of today's lightweights).

JGM (#91) :@George#89 One in 10 schools is a huge sample??? Really???"

Yes, surprising as this may seem to a member of the education industry. Oh dear, oh dear. What have you done to a once respected profession?

"Were the samples taken from the same area or were they taken from a national sample? Were they taken from schools from different decile areas? Were they taken from random schools or ones that had been identified by ERO?"

In the absence of evidence to the contrary one has to assume that the sample taken was designed to be statistically reliable. I haven't heard any of the usual suspects (NZEI, PPTA etc) challenging the study on the basis of the sample being unrepresentative, so I'd put my money on this *NOT* being an issue.

But you can cling to that little straw if it's all you have.

Poor teachers - be afraid. Be very afraid. Your protected existance is threatened!

@George#89 One in 10 schools is a huge sample??? Really??? What happens if the other 90% of schools are working fine? Were the samples taken from the same area or were they taken from a national sample? Were they taken from schools from different decile areas? Were they taken from random schools or ones that had been identified by ERO? Statistics can be manipulated to say anything if you aim the question,etc at the right groups.

Oh, and @Stormer#85 You have to go to University to become a teacher you muppet!

Paul (#88) : "Let's be very clear about one thing: just because you have an education DOES NOT make you an expert in education and how it should run."

Perhaps not, but those of us who have come from underprivileged backgrounds and achieved high academic standards which started with good old fashioned teachers setting demanding standards from us (and telling us in no uncertain terms when we were underperforming and letting ourselves down) may be able to give a bit of an insight to many of today's teachers who have come from nice middle class backgrounds and have done the school-college-school circuit without real life being allowed to intrude anywhere along the line.

Just because kids are poor doesn't mean that they should have it easy. I KNOW from my experience that if my 1960s and 1970s teachers had been soft on me I wouldn't have achieved the three degrees I now have.

If teachers are so convinced that their modern ways are the best then I challenge them to allow parents a real choice: Your modern ways in all things educational - teaching, testing, discipline - against the methods of the 1950s or 1960s. Allow parents to send their kids to whatever system they like, and where schools can't get the numbers close them down or reduce their size by making their teachers redundant. I'd wager that within 5 years there'd be more 'traditional' schools about than 'trendy' ones, and that educational acheivement would at last be starting to get back on track (in the terms everyone else in society outside the magic circles of the NZEI and PPTA) understands.

JGM (#84) : "There are over 2000 primary schools in NZ. This survey looked at 212 (strange amount don't you think?) schools. That's a pretty small percentage to be making big judgements from."

Clearly you don't teach Statistics. Or at least I hope you don't.

212/2000 > 10%. Statistically speaking a huge sample.

Homework (#83) : "George #60 & 72

Well this discussion isn't meant to be about NCEA but just as an aside here's the website link giving help to business/employers."

You illustrate my problem with NCEA perfectly. The rest of society shouldn't need a huge set of manuals to help them to work out whether someone is being passed into the workplace with an education of adequate quality.

A computer, no matter how sophisticated, that requires constant reference to manuals and F1 Help is no use to the general public. A few geeks might like it, and write ad nauseam about how superior it is to ordinary PCs and that awful Windows operating system, but in the real world it will just be a sideshow. Outside the wierd word of the geek everyone else will press on with the 'inferior' Windows and focus on the results of what computer use can do rather than the somewhat pointless details of what's inside the box.

In the same way the education industry in NZ is fixated with its 'superior' systems, but is so inwardly focused that it can't (or is too arrogant to try to) understand how they fail the rest of society.

Fortunately we appear to have a few politicians who at last are realising that your trendy emporor has no clothes!

I'm staggered at the general ignorance and arrogance displayed in so many of the comments I have just read.

Clearly there is a lot of teaching required for parents and the broader community. I'm amazed how many 'expert' opinions there are out there, mostly from folk who've never taught a day in their life.

Let's be very clear about one thing: just because you have an education DOES NOT make you an expert in education and how it should run.

This whole academic snobery, "I have a Masters", "I have a PhD", would be funny,We have asked that the money is paid over (Sandie is holding our funds) do will ring her again now if only it weren't so pathetic. A more relevant statement would indicate how much experience you have in front of 30+ kids day in day out.

The fundamental problem in education in NZ today is that it is run by people who know nothing about education.

If National Standards are pushed through next year it will be a complete disaster from start to finish. And certainly do nothing to raise student achievement.

Do yourself a favour, go watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

It's 20mins long, but Ms Tolley you need to see it.

Oh c'mon you uppity teachers!

Surely no one thinks you're solely to blame!

Of course parents (or whoever the heck is suppose to be raising children these days!) should take responsibility, but don't you think having an easy to understand report against a nationally rated system is a good thing?

I for one would rather know where my Children stood against the rest than the higgeldy-piggeldy nonsense kids bring home at the moment.

At least than way parents know what their kids need to work on.

And if a kid can't read or write at the required level, what's so wrong with having them repeat a year? better then than when they're at high school.

While it is pretty sad that 30% of junior school teachers are not teaching effectively, it is even sadder that 70% of principals and other school leaders are not monitoring new entrant and Year 2 student progress as they should. Nor are they planning strategic interventions to get those students who struggle early back on the tracks as soon as possible. As I understand it, National Standards aims to turn this around and so for me it can't happen soon enough. Have a good holiday teachers- some of you have lots of work to do in the next couple of years it would seem.

Teachers could get paid more, the fact they are in love with collective contracts make it impossible. National Standards will make it easy to distinguish good teachers from bad; appropriate remuneration is therefore easy.

Only the kids who couldn't get into University from my high school went into teaching, sad fact.

There are over 2000 primary schools in NZ. This survey looked at 212 (strange amount don't you think?) schools. That's a pretty small percentage to be making big judgements from.

Luckily my school does have brilliant year 1 & 2 teachers. Our assessment and goal setting policies and procedures are excellent, and allow the teachers to plan appropriate and achievement based lessons and units of study. My 6 year old daughter goes to the school and is doing great. If she wasn't I wouldn't have her there.

As per usual, politicians are using tiny proportional surveys to give misleading "big picture" information to the public in the hope of scaring them into agreement of their policies.(the same as with the ACC increases, recession - wage freezing, etc)

Tolley, you are a scare monger and spin merchant. All the experts inside and outside of the NZ Education system are telling you to not go through with national standards yet you are ignoring all this advice. You have lost sight of the big picture which is to help our children become effective and happy adults. The Millions you are spending on these standards could be used to fund smaller classrooms and give more support to the nation's students. But you want to leave a legacy don't you! And Damn anyone who dares get in the way of that! Shame about the cost.

Stop demonising our profession and giving the general public the impression that we are crap at our jobs. The majority of us DO know what we are doing and work bloody hard to make sure our kids don't under achieve. You are supposed to be be our Minister for Gods sake, not our enemy. Stop using us as your political football.